I fly a Cessna P206 hauling skydivers. Today on one of the drops a
glove somehow managed to become jammed between the mass balance and the
end of the stab which jammed the elevator in about the 1/3 "up"
position. I could see two fingers sticking up above the elevator with
something flapping on the underside. The airplane was pitching up and I
had to roll into a bank to slice the nose down to keep from stalling. I
went through several repetitions of that until I found a power setting
that lessened the pitch-up, then I was able to force the yoke forward
slightly and stablized in a slight descent at 80kts IAS. I got the boss
on the radio and headed the airplane toward a deserted area that would
be okay to bail out over if needed and would be a good place for the
airplane to crash if it came to that. The jumpers had exited at 13000,
I was at about 11,500 when I got things stablized. I got ready to
bailout (tightened the leg straps, tightened the lap belt, felt the lap
belt release and the ripcord handle) and then planned on how to fix the
problem. I decided to try and force the glove out by moving the
elevator. I first pulled on the yoke and was able to get almost full up
elevator but it was still not free and took a great deal of effort to
move the yoke. This of course pitched me up sharply so I rolled left
and as the nose started down rolled level and pushed the yoke forward.
I was only doing about 60-65kts when I pushed so I wasn't worried about
breaking the airplane, but I'm here to tell ya a 206 makes some odd
noised when you push that hard negative. <G> I think it was the air
over the vent intakes...weird sound. The elevator was still not free as
I pitched over, I was thinking it was looking more and more like I was
going to have to jump...I pulled hard on the yoke and this time things
came free. The glove (or whatever it was) was gone and the controls
now worked normally. A gentle descent and landing followed by a close
look at the airplane. The only damage was a slight bend in the stab
top skin where the glove was jammed. (The flightsuit can be cleaned <G>)

One risk of hauling skydivers is that a jumper may have a parachute open
on the step which can lead to the tail being damaged or removed from the
airplane. Because of this I've thought about what I would do if that
should occur. I've even practiced flying with the yoke held in one
position to simulate a jammed elevator. Today it paid off.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

Dale wrote:
> I could see two fingers sticking up above the elevator with
> something flapping on the underside.

It's a good thing it was just a glove!

> (The flightsuit can be cleaned <G>)
That would be a first among jump ship pilots. ;-)

Thanks for the lesson. Rolling to drop the nose is something I will keep in
mind, should I need it.

Congrats for keeping your head and working the problem.

Scott

Nice job! And thanks for posting the story. I learned quite a bit from it.


---
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tscottme wrote:
> Thanks for the lesson. Rolling to drop the nose is something I will keep in
> mind, should I need it.
>
> Congrats for keeping your head and working the problem.
>
> Scott

I've seen a mention here previously of doing this, and I'm wondering if
someone here could comment on the aerodynamics of this. It's not obvious
to me that for a given elevator position, rolling to keep the nose level
would affect the likelihood of a stall. You are stopping the airplane
from climbing, but the stall speed has increased because you are in a bank.

Are you actually flying further from a stall if the elevator is in a
"climb" position but you bank the plane to stay level?

--
David Rind

You had two additional controls you failed to mention using, the rudder
and the elevator trim.
Elevator trim will increase/decrease pitch.
Rudder, when used with elevator will allow you to slip right or left and
control both pitch and airspeed.

Dale wrote:
> I fly a Cessna P206 hauling skydivers. Today on one of the drops a
> glove somehow managed to become jammed between the mass balance and the
> end of the stab which jammed the elevator in about the 1/3 "up"
> position. I could see two fingers sticking up above the elevator with
> something flapping on the underside. The airplane was pitching up and I
> had to roll into a bank to slice the nose down to keep from stalling. I
> went through several repetitions of that until I found a power setting
> that lessened the pitch-up, then I was able to force the yoke forward
> slightly and stablized in a slight descent at 80kts IAS. I got the boss
> on the radio and headed the airplane toward a deserted area that would
> be okay to bail out over if needed and would be a good place for the
> airplane to crash if it came to that. The jumpers had exited at 13000,
> I was at about 11,500 when I got things stablized. I got ready to
> bailout (tightened the leg straps, tightened the lap belt, felt the lap
> belt release and the ripcord handle) and then planned on how to fix the
> problem. I decided to try and force the glove out by moving the
> elevator. I first pulled on the yoke and was able to get almost full up
> elevator but it was still not free and took a great deal of effort to
> move the yoke. This of course pitched me up sharply so I rolled left
> and as the nose started down rolled level and pushed the yoke forward.
> I was only doing about 60-65kts when I pushed so I wasn't worried about
> breaking the airplane, but I'm here to tell ya a 206 makes some odd
> noised when you push that hard negative. <G> I think it was the air
> over the vent intakes...weird sound. The elevator was still not free as
> I pitched over, I was thinking it was looking more and more like I was
> going to have to jump...I pulled hard on the yoke and this time things
> came free. The glove (or whatever it was) was gone and the controls
> now worked normally. A gentle descent and landing followed by a close
> look at the airplane. The only damage was a slight bend in the stab
> top skin where the glove was jammed. (The flightsuit can be cleaned <G>)
>
> One risk of hauling skydivers is that a jumper may have a parachute open
> on the step which can lead to the tail being damaged or removed from the
> airplane. Because of this I've thought about what I would do if that
> should occur. I've even practiced flying with the yoke held in one
> position to simulate a jammed elevator. Today it paid off.
>

In article >,
john smith > wrote:

> You had two additional controls you failed to mention using, the rudder
> and the elevator trim.
> Elevator trim will increase/decrease pitch.
> Rudder, when used with elevator will allow you to slip right or left and
> control both pitch and airspeed.
>

The trim wouldn't work in this case...the elevator would not move.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

In article >,
David Rind > wrote:


> I've seen a mention here previously of doing this, and I'm wondering if
> someone here could comment on the aerodynamics of this. It's not obvious
> to me that for a given elevator position, rolling to keep the nose level
> would affect the likelihood of a stall. You are stopping the airplane
> from climbing, but the stall speed has increased because you are in a bank.

Bank angle does not affect stall speed, the increased load factor that
comes with a banked turn does.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

Dale > wrote in
:

> In article >,
> john smith > wrote:
>
>> You had two additional controls you failed to mention using, the
>> rudder and the elevator trim.
>> Elevator trim will increase/decrease pitch.
>> Rudder, when used with elevator will allow you to slip right or left
>> and control both pitch and airspeed.
>>
>
> The trim wouldn't work in this case...the elevator would not move.
>

Did the glove get stuck during the jump, or was it there when you took off?

<<It's not obvious to me that for a given elevator position, rolling
to keep the nose level would affect the likelihood of a stall.>>

Agreed. The elevator position determines the AOA. Banking the
airplane keeps more or less the same AOA, but the associated speed
will increase.

If the a/c didn't stall in the bank, then it likely wasn't going to
stall in straight flight, particuarly with only 1/3 "up" and a forward
CG.

In article >,
Andrew Sarangan > wrote:


> Did the glove get stuck during the jump, or was it there when you took off?

It ended up there during the jumper exit.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

In article >,
Greg Esres > wrote:


> If the a/c didn't stall in the bank, then it likely wasn't going to
> stall in straight flight, particuarly with only 1/3 "up" and a forward
> CG.

Gee Greg, sure wish you had been in the airplane with me. You could
have explained to the airplane that it wasn't "likely" to do what it was
doing. Ok, perhaps it wouldn't have exceeded the critical AOA causing a
stall, but the pitch angle was going to be excessive. If left alone it
would have pitched over seeking trim speed with a resultant zoom right
back up. Not a ride I wanted to participate in...and I'm comfortable
with pitch and bank angles that most people probably are not comfortable
with.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

Opps! Should have typed "rudder when used with aileron"

john smith wrote:
> You had two additional controls you failed to mention using, the rudder
> and the elevator trim.
> Elevator trim will increase/decrease pitch.
> Rudder, when used with elevator will allow you to slip right or left and
> control both pitch and airspeed.
>
> Dale wrote:
>
>> I fly a Cessna P206 hauling skydivers. Today on one of the drops a
>> glove somehow managed to become jammed between the mass balance and
>> the end of the stab which jammed the elevator in about the 1/3 "up"
>> position. I could see two fingers sticking up above the elevator with
>> something flapping on the underside. The airplane was pitching up and
>> I had to roll into a bank to slice the nose down to keep from
>> stalling. I went through several repetitions of that until I found a
>> power setting that lessened the pitch-up, then I was able to force the
>> yoke forward slightly and stablized in a slight descent at 80kts IAS.
>> I got the boss on the radio and headed the airplane toward a deserted
>> area that would be okay to bail out over if needed and would be a good
>> place for the airplane to crash if it came to that. The jumpers had
>> exited at 13000, I was at about 11,500 when I got things stablized. I
>> got ready to bailout (tightened the leg straps, tightened the lap
>> belt, felt the lap belt release and the ripcord handle) and then
>> planned on how to fix the problem. I decided to try and force the
>> glove out by moving the elevator. I first pulled on the yoke and was
>> able to get almost full up elevator but it was still not free and took
>> a great deal of effort to move the yoke. This of course pitched me up
>> sharply so I rolled left and as the nose started down rolled level and
>> pushed the yoke forward. I was only doing about 60-65kts when I
>> pushed so I wasn't worried about breaking the airplane, but I'm here
>> to tell ya a 206 makes some odd noised when you push that hard
>> negative. <G> I think it was the air over the vent intakes...weird
>> sound. The elevator was still not free as I pitched over, I was
>> thinking it was looking more and more like I was going to have to
>> jump...I pulled hard on the yoke and this time things came free. The
>> glove (or whatever it was) was gone and the controls now worked
>> normally. A gentle descent and landing followed by a close look at
>> the airplane. The only damage was a slight bend in the stab top skin
>> where the glove was jammed. (The flightsuit can be cleaned <G>)
>>
>> One risk of hauling skydivers is that a jumper may have a parachute
>> open on the step which can lead to the tail being damaged or removed
>> from the airplane. Because of this I've thought about what I would do
>> if that should occur. I've even practiced flying with the yoke held
>> in one position to simulate a jammed elevator. Today it paid off.
>>
>

Unless the 206 has a stabilator, the trim works independent of the
elevator. It is an anti-servo tab.
See
http://www.angelfire.com/on/dragonflyaircraft/servotab.html

Dale wrote:
> The trim wouldn't work in this case...the elevator would not move.

The elevator trim would work in the case of a jammed elevator.

The trim would, however, work opposite to normal.

Karl

"Dale" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> john smith > wrote:
>
>> You had two additional controls you failed to mention using, the rudder
>> and the elevator trim.
>> Elevator trim will increase/decrease pitch.
>> Rudder, when used with elevator will allow you to slip right or left and
>> control both pitch and airspeed.
>>
>
> The trim wouldn't work in this case...the elevator would not move.
>
> --
> Dale L. Falk
>
> There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
> as simply messing around with airplanes.
>
> http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> Unless the 206 has a stabilator, the trim works independent of the
> elevator.

Don't fly Cessnas much, eh?

The trim control requires the elevator to be able to move in order to be
effective. If the elevator is stuck, it is possible to use the trim control
to effect *small* changes in pitch, but those changes will be opposite to
the normal effect of the trim control (i.e. nose down trim will cause nose
up pitch).

In this situation, the trim control effectively becomes a very tiny
elevator. Dale probably should've tried using it, but depending on the
amount of elevator deflection when it got stuck, it may or may not have been
very useful.

Pete

Dale wrote:
> I decided to try and force the glove out by moving the
> elevator. I first pulled on the yoke and was able to get almost full up
> elevator but it was still not free and took a great deal of effort to
> move the yoke....

>
> One risk of hauling skydivers is that a jumper may have a parachute open
> on the step which can lead to the tail being damaged or removed from the
> airplane. Because of this I've thought about what I would do if that
> should occur. I've even practiced flying with the yoke held in one
> position to simulate a jammed elevator. Today it paid off.
>

I don't mean to argue with success, but your narrative does leave
me with a couple of questions. As I understand the situation, you've
managed to achieve a stable descent with your elevator stuck in a
pitch-up position. At this point I would be concerned that any attempts
to pull the yoke back would result in the elevator being stuck in an
even greater pitch-up position.

How difficult would it have been to land the aircraft using only
power, rudder, and ailerons?

Did you have some reason, not given in the narrative, for believing
that you would be able to return the elevator to at least its current
position?

Did the fact that you were ready (and able) to bail out if necessary
influence your decision-making? (In other words, would you have done
the same things if you knew you had to live [or die] with any
irreversible negative changes you imposed on the situation?)

Rich Lemert

Yes, Peter, I do know that.
It is very evident when preflighting an aircraft.
When you raise or lower the elevator, the trim tab moves variably with
the angle of the elevator.
In this case, you would use every available input to your advantage.

Peter Duniho wrote:
> "john smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Unless the 206 has a stabilator, the trim works independent of the
>>elevator.
>
>
> Don't fly Cessnas much, eh?
>
> The trim control requires the elevator to be able to move in order to be
> effective. If the elevator is stuck, it is possible to use the trim control
> to effect *small* changes in pitch, but those changes will be opposite to
> the normal effect of the trim control (i.e. nose down trim will cause nose
> up pitch).
>
> In this situation, the trim control effectively becomes a very tiny
> elevator. Dale probably should've tried using it, but depending on the
> amount of elevator deflection when it got stuck, it may or may not have been
> very useful.
>
> Pete
>
>

Dale > wrote in message >...
> I fly a Cessna P206 hauling skydivers. Today on one of the drops a
> glove somehow managed to become jammed between the mass balance and the
> end of the stab which jammed the elevator in about the 1/3 "up"
> position. I could see two fingers sticking up above the elevator with
> something flapping on the underside. The airplane was pitching up and I
> had to roll into a bank to slice the nose down to keep from stalling. I
> went through several repetitions of that until I found a power setting
> that lessened the pitch-up, then I was able to force the yoke forward
> slightly and stablized in a slight descent at 80kts IAS. I got the boss
> on the radio and headed the airplane toward a deserted area that would
> be okay to bail out over if needed and would be a good place for the
> airplane to crash if it came to that. The jumpers had exited at 13000,
> I was at about 11,500 when I got things stablized. I got ready to
> bailout (tightened the leg straps, tightened the lap belt, felt the lap
> belt release and the ripcord handle) and then planned on how to fix the
> problem. I decided to try and force the glove out by moving the
> elevator. I first pulled on the yoke and was able to get almost full up
> elevator but it was still not free and took a great deal of effort to
> move the yoke. This of course pitched me up sharply so I rolled left
> and as the nose started down rolled level and pushed the yoke forward.
> I was only doing about 60-65kts when I pushed so I wasn't worried about
> breaking the airplane, but I'm here to tell ya a 206 makes some odd
> noised when you push that hard negative. <G> I think it was the air
> over the vent intakes...weird sound. The elevator was still not free as
> I pitched over, I was thinking it was looking more and more like I was
> going to have to jump...I pulled hard on the yoke and this time things
> came free. The glove (or whatever it was) was gone and the controls
> now worked normally. A gentle descent and landing followed by a close
> look at the airplane. The only damage was a slight bend in the stab
> top skin where the glove was jammed. (The flightsuit can be cleaned <G>)
>
> One risk of hauling skydivers is that a jumper may have a parachute open
> on the step which can lead to the tail being damaged or removed from the
> airplane. Because of this I've thought about what I would do if that
> should occur. I've even practiced flying with the yoke held in one
> position to simulate a jammed elevator. Today it paid off.

It sounds like somebodys joke almost killed you.
Was the glove present on takeoff?

Either way, thanks for the nice tale. The part about using either
a turn or a reduced power setting is invaluable to the rest of us.

As I recall, you said it stabilized at about 80 kts, reduced power, slight
descent.
Sounds like you had a nice approach set up. 80 might be a tad high for a
light
206. At what speed did it stabilize with no power?

Also sounds like the phugoid contributed to the adrenaline level.


Dale wrote in message ...
>In article >,
> Greg Esres > wrote:
>
>
>> If the a/c didn't stall in the bank, then it likely wasn't going to
>> stall in straight flight, particuarly with only 1/3 "up" and a forward
>> CG.
>
>Gee Greg, sure wish you had been in the airplane with me. You could
>have explained to the airplane that it wasn't "likely" to do what it was
>doing. Ok, perhaps it wouldn't have exceeded the critical AOA causing a
>stall, but the pitch angle was going to be excessive. If left alone it
>would have pitched over seeking trim speed with a resultant zoom right
>back up. Not a ride I wanted to participate in...and I'm comfortable
>with pitch and bank angles that most people probably are not comfortable
>with.
>
>--
>Dale L. Falk
>
>There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
>as simply messing around with airplanes.
>
>http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

Question:
Say again your thoughts/concerns/decisions regarding flaps extension?
Thx,
VL
PS: Good job on the landing!

<<If left alone it would have pitched over seeking trim speed with a
resultant zoom right back up. Not a ride I wanted to participate
in.>>

That part I can agree with.

I'm not criticizing your performance, because you did well in an
emergency, but I do think that it's important not to let any readers
walk away with the idea that the way to prevent a stall is bank the
aircraft.

<<sounds like the phugoid contributed to the adrenaline level.>>

That's my interp.

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> Yes, Peter, I do know that.

Then why did you write "the trim works independent of the elevator". It
certainly does not. It relies on the elevator to do its job. It is
anything *but* independent of the elevator.

There are examples of airplanes with trim that *truly* works "independent of
the elevator". For example, airplanes with horizontal stabilizers that are
adjusted with the trim control, but which have a regular elevator as well
(i.e. *not* a stabilator-equipped airplane). Another example are the Lake
amphibians, which have one or two (depending on the model) elevator-like
control surfaces (commonly called "split elevator"), hinged and controlled
completely independently from the elevator itself.

Your original comment about elevator trim made no mention of the fact that
the elevator trim behaves opposite from normal when the elevator is stuck,
nor did your follow-up post. It was not clear at all that you understood
what the elevator trim did; assuming that none of this is news to you, I
suggest you could use some work on being more specific about what you post,
and not writing things that mean something other than what you really intend
(like using the word "independent" when it's not applicable at all).

Pete

In article >,
wrote:


>
> It sounds like somebodys joke almost killed you.
> Was the glove present on takeoff?


I'm sure it wasn't there before takeoff. Part of my pretakeoff check is
to look at the trim tab to confirm it's setting.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

In article .net>,
Rich Lemert > wrote:



> How difficult would it have been to land the aircraft using only
> power, rudder, and ailerons?

It would have been possible I think. But to make that landing I would
want a long runway and some Crash/Fire/Rescue resources. The closest
place is about 30nm away.

> Did you have some reason, not given in the narrative, for believing
> that you would be able to return the elevator to at least its current
> position?

Yes. I was able early on to push the yoke forward slightly, although it
took a great deal of pressure to do so. I knew there was some risk of
making the situation worse, but felt that I would be able to get the
elevator back to a workable position if need be.

> Did the fact that you were ready (and able) to bail out if necessary
> influence your decision-making? (In other words, would you have done
> the same things if you knew you had to live [or die] with any
> irreversible negative changes you imposed on the situation?)

I can't honestly answer that. I have made over 700 jumps so the thought
of leaving the airplane isn't a big deal. Having the parachute does
open some options, or at least reduce the risk of death.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

In article >,
"dennis brown" > wrote:

> As I recall, you said it stabilized at about 80 kts, reduced power, slight
> descent.
> Sounds like you had a nice approach set up. 80 might be a tad high for a
> light
> 206. At what speed did it stabilize with no power?

Less than about 14 inches and the nose would drop, more than about 14
inches and the nose would pitch up.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

In article >,
(MLenoch) wrote:

> Question:
> Say again your thoughts/concerns/decisions regarding flaps extension?


I didn't consider the flaps at the time. If I had been forced to land
with the elevator jammed I would have experimented while still at
altitude to find a way to get into a survivable landing attitude..flaps
would be on the list of items to try.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

In article >,
john smith > wrote:

> Yes, Peter, I do know that.
> It is very evident when preflighting an aircraft.
> When you raise or lower the elevator, the trim tab moves variably with
> the angle of the elevator.

Not on the single engine Cessna aircraft it doesn't. With the possible
exception of the Cardinal which has a stabilator.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

In article >,
Greg Esres > wrote:


>
> I'm not criticizing your performance, because you did well in an
> emergency, but I do think that it's important not to let any readers
> walk away with the idea that the way to prevent a stall is bank the
> aircraft.

Stall was a poor choice of words. I used roll to control pitch. With
an undesired pitchup I think most of us would be thinking about a stall.

I was flying again today and played around a bit on a couple of flights.
The initial elevator position was closer to 1/2 up than 1/3. As the
jumpers are climbing out to exit the power is down to 10 inches or so,
airspeed is about 65kts and I trim nose up since they are moving forward
to exit. After they leave the drill is to close the door, power back up
to 18 inches and pushover for descent. With that much elevator
deflection bringing the power up causes a strong pitchup. I held the
elevator as immobile as I could and allowed it to pitchup to see what
would happen. At about 30-35 degrees of pitch it started to roll off to
the left, airspeed was below 40IAS.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

"Dale" > wrote in message
...
> > When you raise or lower the elevator, the trim tab moves variably with
> > the angle of the elevator.
>
> Not on the single engine Cessna aircraft it doesn't. With the possible
> exception of the Cardinal which has a stabilator.

Actually, if you look closely, the trim tab does move as the elevator moves,
even on the non-stabilator Cessnas. It's not a very large deflection, and
whether it does or not isn't really relevant to this thread anyway, but it
does move.

The movement of the Cardinal's trim tab is much more pronounced, I certainly
will grant.

Pete

172's and 182's it does. Move the elevator up or down and you will see
the relative angle of the trim tab change with respect to the elevator.

Dale wrote:
> In article >,
> john smith > wrote:
>
>
>>Yes, Peter, I do know that.
>>It is very evident when preflighting an aircraft.
>>When you raise or lower the elevator, the trim tab moves variably with
>>the angle of the elevator.
>
>
> Not on the single engine Cessna aircraft it doesn't. With the possible
> exception of the Cardinal which has a stabilator.
>

Go back and read my original posting referencing the website on
servo/anti-servo tabs.

Peter Duniho wrote:
> "john smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Yes, Peter, I do know that.
>
>
> Then why did you write "the trim works independent of the elevator". It
> certainly does not. It relies on the elevator to do its job. It is
> anything *but* independent of the elevator.
>
> There are examples of airplanes with trim that *truly* works "independent of
> the elevator". For example, airplanes with horizontal stabilizers that are
> adjusted with the trim control, but which have a regular elevator as well
> (i.e. *not* a stabilator-equipped airplane). Another example are the Lake
> amphibians, which have one or two (depending on the model) elevator-like
> control surfaces (commonly called "split elevator"), hinged and controlled
> completely independently from the elevator itself.
>
> Your original comment about elevator trim made no mention of the fact that
> the elevator trim behaves opposite from normal when the elevator is stuck,
> nor did your follow-up post. It was not clear at all that you understood
> what the elevator trim did; assuming that none of this is news to you, I
> suggest you could use some work on being more specific about what you post,
> and not writing things that mean something other than what you really intend
> (like using the word "independent" when it's not applicable at all).
>
> Pete
>
>

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> Go back and read my original posting referencing the website on
> servo/anti-servo tabs.

I already read your post and the website. The content of the website is
irrelevant, since there was no indication that you actually understood what
the website says.

In any case, I'm willing to believe you have a clue. But if you do, you
completely failed to demonstrate that in either of the two posts where you
had an opportunity to do so. Your improper use of the word "independent"
completely changed whatever meaning you may have intended.

If that doesn't concern you, that's fine. I'm simply offering that insight,
and if you are unwilling to take advantage of it, it's no skin off my nose.
Good luck...

Pete

Okay, if I said by independent, it is moved by cable connected to a
wheel and not by the yoke or stick, would that satisfy you?

Peter Duniho wrote:
> "john smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Go back and read my original posting referencing the website on
>>servo/anti-servo tabs.
>
>
> I already read your post and the website. The content of the website is
> irrelevant, since there was no indication that you actually understood what
> the website says.
>
> In any case, I'm willing to believe you have a clue. But if you do, you
> completely failed to demonstrate that in either of the two posts where you
> had an opportunity to do so. Your improper use of the word "independent"
> completely changed whatever meaning you may have intended.
>
> If that doesn't concern you, that's fine. I'm simply offering that insight,
> and if you are unwilling to take advantage of it, it's no skin off my nose.
> Good luck...
>
> Pete
>
>

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> Okay, if I said by independent, it is moved by cable connected to a
> wheel and not by the yoke or stick, would that satisfy you?

It's not a question of "satisfying" me. But if you're going to ask that
question, then I'd suggest you consider whether there are ANY trim systems
that don't qualify as "independent" under that definition (I assume the
important part of your definition is the "not by the yoke or stick", rather
than the "moved by a cable").

There are, of course -- the Cirrus trim system comes to mind -- but they are
incredibly rare. I don't think that's a very useful definition of
"independent", because it fails to rule out practically all trim systems.
But in any case, if that's the definition you're going to use, you ought to
have been explicit about it, since I don't think most people would
immediately think of that use of the word when it's written.

Pete

Peter, stay on topic, this is a Cessna 206.

Peter Duniho wrote:
> "john smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Okay, if I said by independent, it is moved by cable connected to a
>>wheel and not by the yoke or stick, would that satisfy you?
>
>
> It's not a question of "satisfying" me. But if you're going to ask that
> question, then I'd suggest you consider whether there are ANY trim systems
> that don't qualify as "independent" under that definition (I assume the
> important part of your definition is the "not by the yoke or stick", rather
> than the "moved by a cable").
>
> There are, of course -- the Cirrus trim system comes to mind -- but they are
> incredibly rare. I don't think that's a very useful definition of
> "independent", because it fails to rule out practically all trim systems.
> But in any case, if that's the definition you're going to use, you ought to
> have been explicit about it, since I don't think most people would
> immediately think of that use of the word when it's written.
>
> Pete
>
>

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> Peter, stay on topic, this is a Cessna 206.

So what if the original airplane was a 206? Are you trying to say that one
should only interpret the word "independent" as it might apply to the 206?
That the general definition as it might apply to all airplanes is
irrelevant?

Why bother saying that the trim control is "independent" at all then? Why
not just say "it's a 206 trim control"? I mean, as near as I can tell from
what "logic" you've been using, that would say all that needs to be said.

Anyway, it's clear you don't really care whether anyone actually understands
what you write, and like I said, it's not a question of "satisfying" me.
You do what you like, the rest of us will just stand by and watch you make
yourself look dumb.

Pete

In article >,
"Peter Duniho" > wrote:

>stand by and watch you make yourself look dumb.

With all your ranting you're not looking like a shining star either.

Sheesh, I'm sorry I posted anything.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

I think if you would look really closely, the airspeed would stabilize at a
pretty much given number with a fixed elevator
position. Whether you climb, cruise or descend would depend on power. The
rest is probably the phugoid motion
causing the airspeed variations. One of these times do some experimenting
with blocked controls. Or disconnected
controls. You can simulate blocked by using various sized stuff to keep the
stick fixed. To simulate disconnected, let
go. I found I could easily control my aircraft by using flaps instead of
elevator. In fact it seemed
so stable that I let go of the ailerons and rudders also. So no elevator, no
aileron, no rudder. Just flaps. It established
a spiral and just stayed there. I could only get it to tighten up a bit by
letting the phugoid get more severe. When I
damped out the phugoid, the spiral lessened and it went back to a stable
spiral descent. This would
have been a bail out situation for me because it would mean contacting the
ground with the tip first. Add a tad
of rudder or aileron control and it would have been quite survivable. One
other interesting thing, I could not get it
to establish a straight ahead wings level stable condition (no fair touching
the stick or rudders after you let go).
It would eventually end up in a stable shallow spiral one direction or the
other. Maybe I need to look at the flaps
and see how they match up. On the other hand, I think I'll just keep my
chute on and know that if the controls all
break at the same time it's time to jump.

How many others of us know how many controls can break before they need to
jump? What? They don't know?

Dale wrote in message ...
>In article >,
> "dennis brown" > wrote:
>
>> As I recall, you said it stabilized at about 80 kts, reduced power,
slight
>> descent.
>> Sounds like you had a nice approach set up. 80 might be a tad high for a
>> light
>> 206. At what speed did it stabilize with no power?
>
>Less than about 14 inches and the nose would drop, more than about 14
>inches and the nose would pitch up.
>
>--
>Dale L. Falk
>
>There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
>as simply messing around with airplanes.
>
>http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

> I found I could easily control my aircraft by using flaps instead of
>elevator.

That was my thought regarding my previous flaps question.......nice to get
these follow ups! Thx.

Regards the no control situation, that's how the DHL Airbus survived the RPG
attack in Bagdad a few months ago. They apparently had only throttles and
landing gear for control.

VL

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:53:53 -0800, Dale > wrote:

>In article >,
> "Peter Duniho" > wrote:
>
>>stand by and watch you make yourself look dumb.
>
>With all your ranting you're not looking like a shining star either.
>
>Sheesh, I'm sorry I posted anything.

....as long as it stops the bickering.

z

Dale wrote:

> Sheesh, I'm sorry I posted anything.
>

Dale,

Nice job handling your emergency situation! I'm glad it turned out O.K.

Part of the fun here is watching threads get twisted and turned by the
local "experts" ;)

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

"Dale" > wrote in message
...
> With all your ranting you're not looking like a shining star either.

Ah, yes...the Usenet variation on the old "takes one to know one" or "I know
you are, but what am I?" retorts.

How clever of you...